A Horde Coming Your Way
- December 21, 2017 at 12:57 am #16148
——–This was originally posted by “TN Homesteader” on 12/17/17 but was lost in the server migration———
Recently, John posted a the video entitled “SHTF Boss Battle” (<–-Link), i.e., “Community Organizer vs. Prepper”. Within that discussion, there was a point about people being directed to abscond other’s preps. One of the discussion threads had to do with defending your house (which I will think of as your “bunker”) against the “horde” coming your way.
This topic merits discussion as the subject of defense goes into how to deal with people in general.December 21, 2017 at 12:58 am #16149
———-This was originally posted by “TN Homesteader” on 12/17/17 but was lost in the server migration———
With any group (unless they are all out “zombies“) there will be levels of leadership. Whether is is a couple or dozens there followers and those actually directing. When a group/horde is heading your way, the key is to identify the latter. The identification requires recognizing, understanding, and learning people’s behavior; group dynamics if you may. Of course, the time to do this is now and not when you have multiple coming your way.
When you are viewing any group, be it on TV, Movie, or Real World, observe; generally called people watching. When you see a group, pay attention to body language (hand gestures, head movements, etc.), be attentive to their physical position within the group. This is true even in fictional media items as they have some basis on typical human behavior. Your observations will reveal common behavior patterns that can be used when it is critical to understand how to deal with a group of people coming your way before or during SHTF. Sure you can come out “shooting” if you will but if there are many, who do you address first? Who will give you the maximum return for the exposure?
In any relatively large group (half dozen or more) there will be sheeple as well as herders. Sheeple, by definition, are followers and thus will tend to engage the “flee” reaction to and adverse situation, i.e., when lead is whizzing by. But, will that really address the group? Typically, the answer is “no”.
As long as there are some sheeple that will continue to heed the command and control, numbers remain in their favor. If we think chess, the goal is to take out the Queen and topple the King. Pawns are pieces that get sacrificed, i.e., the sheeple. In military campaigns, taking out command and control to enable control of the battlefield is the primary goal. Hence, when we are looking at defending your bunker against a hoard, the goal is to identify your primary targets.
Here are a few of my observe the crowd thoughts to make a call on who to address with action, keywords, observe and address:
Assess the approaching “horde”;
- Look for aggression
- Are the people visibly armed?
- Are they brandishing the weapons?
- Are they holding weapons appropriately or haphazardly?
- Look for leadership
- Is there a policing agent, i.e., uniform, badge, anything that projects “authority”?
- Is there a person giving directions to the group?
- Is there a person on point giving “follow/don’t follow” instructions?
- Are the people looking at anyone in particular, like moving forward but glancing back as if trying to confirm if they are doing it right?
- Look at the crowd
- Do they approach in an organized fashion?
- Do they project “assertiveness” or “apprehension”?
- Are they stalking or walking?
- Are there lookouts?
Obviously, things will be happening rather quickly and depending on your locality, the “hoard” may be the community or gangs/violent people. Thus, the sheeple may not be so docile but the command structure would still be there. Now, your numbers and rate of defense come into play on whether you immediately address the command and control or take out a few pawns to reduce the numbers or identify leadership.December 21, 2017 at 12:59 am #16150
———This was originally posted by “Minarchist” on 12/17/17 but was lost in the server migration——–
Actually, I would be far more worried about a horde coming my way than a hoard. ? But spelling errors aside, an excellent point has been raised. I would suggest that if you are planning to stay in an area for an extended period of time your first priority should be operational security. In other words to the greatest extent possible nobody should know that you are a “prepper”. Granted that you may end up being targeted “just because”, but if they don’t know you have a significant stash of goodies they will be less likely to focus on you to begin with.
Then there’s the entire question of information gathering. Ideally you will want to have some sort of advance warning that a horde is approaching. If at all possible this should be a time frame measured in days or at least hours. If your first clue that a horde has targeted you is when they show up within spitting distance of your location then you are at a significant disadvantage already.
While this may be somewhat controversial I would suggest that one of the options you should seriously consider is just to bug out and write off the stuff you can’t take with you. Depending on how close the horde is they (or at least some of them) may stop to loot your stuff as opposed to trying to chase you down. This is why that in an ideal scenario you would have one or more caches of stuff stashed in location(s) that are relatively remote from your spot.
It may be exciting to consider the option of some sort of defense of a fortified location against a marauding horde. But my personal opinion is that the best strategy is to try to avoid having to go through with that sort of scenario in the first place. Note that in order for such a defense to work your location is going to have to be seriously fortified. Take John’s recommendation in one of his videos to invest in sand bags and line your walls with them on the inside of your place. Note that if you are in a wood frame structure you are at a serious disadvantage. Granted that arguably they may not want to set the structure on fire and thus lose the loot they hope to gain. But if a serious firefight goes on long enough and they lose enough people they may take the approach that their best long term bet is to make the most graphic example of you that they can so others will be less likely to resist.
In order to have even a ghost of a chance of making a defense work you are also going to have to have some serious firepower. This is where the assault rifle and battle rifle clones come into their own. You are also going to need a ridiculous amount of ammo, a whole bunch of spare magazines, and hopefully at least one member of the group who can be tasked with reloading empty magazines. With the exception of Springfield Armory’s M1A or other M14 clones, I am aware of no other commonly available battle/assault rifle clone out there that will let you load the weapon directly from stripper clips. Thus if you run out of loaded detachable box magazines you are hosed. Also you will want to have a bunch of ammo loaded onto stripper clips if you have a weapon that can take them. Another thing to look for are stripper clip guides to be used on detached box magazines so that they can be loaded 5 rounds at a time from stripper clips as opposed to one round at a time by hand. Note that if such guides are available they will likely only work for one type of magazine only. So a stripper clip guide for HK-91 magazines may not do you much good if you have metric pattern FNFAL magazines.
Finally note that if the situation is serious enough and the attacking force is determined enough, they will get through eventually. The only real guarantee you have of coming out ahead in that sort of situation is if you can count on being aided by an outside force attacking the horde and driving them away from your location. Think the charge of the Rohirrim in the “Return of the King” breaking the orcs’ siege of Gondor. Granted that is a “fantasy” example, but there are more than enough real world examples scattered throughout history to show how that works. If you are coordinated well enough with other groups that are large and powerful enough to mount some sort of effort like that to begin with. If you are not, and your foe is dedicated and determined enough, willing to suffer the casualties that you can inflict on them and settled in for the long haul then it is only a question of time before they will wear you down. If you do find yourself in that situation then either content yourself with simply trying to kill as many of them as you can before they kill you, trying to stage some sort of breakout abandoning your location, or some sort of raid trying to target and kill their leadership.December 23, 2017 at 12:16 pm #16182
Minarchist Hoard/Horde? What’chu talkn’ ’bout Willis??
I asked the Admin to correct my spelling error when she recovered the comments during server migration. ?
Thank you for taking up the topic and supplying your insight. The intent of my original bullet points about the “horde” one might be facing was more to skills that should be gained now when people watching is benign. The key is to spot individuals that should have priority in ones determination that group that is, or might be, approaching requires addressing.
Now, what constitutes a horde? Well, IMO, it is relative to ones defensive posture. As an extreme example, if one is alone in a campsite, just a few (3) persons can be a horde. On the other hand, if one is leader or member of a larger well defended group, the horde would require quite a few more. Of course, the use of the word was more of an eye catcher (comment bait? ?) and means to relate back to the original “triggering” Patreon comment.
Intel – is a key point, you do not want to find there is a horde coming when they are at your front door, i.e., spittin’ distance as you put it. The interesting thing, the acquisition of intel (during SHTF) begins long before that. One must assess locale to determine congregation points and when to be overt and covert in ones observations. Here is where people watching comes in as well, “who are the leaders?“. I am sure you know there will be others actively watching and listening to obtain their intel, even if it is just to find out who to follow. Listening is a critical skill to hone. People, unless trained or experienced hunters, are naturally noisy. However, sounds will be different during SHTF, for one, I’d expect it to be much more quiet. So, one has to listen to wildlife, sounds that are out of the norm for your locale, etc. Whether observing, guarding, or going about your business, don’t expect people to announce themselves. Would you be up to starting a topic on this item? Intel I mean.
Bunker hardening – is definitely a must for bug in. Now, just like the use of horde, bunker does not necessarily mean a buried CONEX! Like the intel item, “hardening” begins long before SHTF like many of the other “and a Plan” items.
- Questions for consideration:
- Are you visible?
- Are you easily accessed?
- Do you have means to block vehicles from reaching premises?
- Is your building defensible?
- Can the perimeter walls withstand gunfire?
- Are the windows secure and block light emission?
These are but a few of the many questions to address hardening of your bunker but also to determine if “hunkering down” should be plan “A”.
Defensive weaponry – is a major consideration be your decision to bug in or out. Of course, multitude of opinions in this area as everyone has their favorite “tools” or even if firearms are acceptable approach. Assuming no objections to firearms and considering the horde, rate of fire capability is critical. Not saying that one needs a SAW in the group (would be nice of course) but ability to target multiple in short order is a need. So, looking at civilian semi-auto, AR/M4/AK with multiple spare magazines is needed. Do not assume that a single 30/40/60 round mag or even a drum will be sufficient. It is not necessarily the number of rounds in the magazine but the number of magazines. They fail, jam (drums are notorious for that) and greatly dependent on how maintained and quality of manufacturing. Multiple magazines, even at lower capacity, enables swapping in case of issues and certainly way faster than reloading them! Joe/GI mags (metal) are relatively inexpensive, particularly military surplus. If you are buying surplus, inspect feed lip (the two “rounded” tabs atop the magazine) for damage, bent, excessive wear, etc. Don’t buy if damaged. When you obtain, disassemble, clean with acetone (nail polish remover), inspect spring, and upgrade follower for best results. Depending on age of surplus, the follower may “rock” and thus jam. The newer followers are designed not to rock. Look on line/YouTube for further information.
- Magazine Tips;
- Keep your magazines loaded; it is a urban myth that spring will weaken if stored loaded.
- Load magazine a round (1) short of full capacity. It will enable a more reliable and easier “seating” when inserting into well.
- Load a tracer round as the second to the last round in the magazine, i.e., the second round inserted when loading the mag. This will be a visual indicator that you need to swap magazines. It is much easier than counting or waiting for BCG to catch due to running empty.
- NOTE: Although I use AR platform terms, the loading tips apply to other mags as well.
Overwhelming odds – are to be considered. As with anything, if sufficient numbers and determined, one has to have a “plan B” (or C) in this case. As you sated Minarchist, it is time to take a different tactic. Bug out, go down fighting, or go on offensive against their leadership. That is one I think I’m going to wait for the condition/time. Have the bug out preps ready, to be sure. Bug out, I think “conditions on the ground” will need to be assessed.December 25, 2017 at 3:00 am #16190
I just hang a sign on my front door with an arrow “My neighbor is unarmed”December 25, 2017 at 3:18 am #16191
But seriously, If SHTF is an exclusive event to the US or North America, the horde in 6-12 months will be speaking Chinese and/or Russian. A lot more worrisome than some “local leader”.
I haven’t heard anyone mention a timeline on the organization of this “horde”? Total grid down scenario I don’t think that many will last more than a week anyway especially in the winter months. And add in the fact that there would be NO communication and minimal transportation… Idk. You might encounter groups of people that just so happened to be near each other when the lights go out, but I don’t see an organized force with leadership coming out of that very fast.
I will add that I live in a relatively small town, so if you are reading this and live in a major city, then I’m sorry… your fucked regardless.December 26, 2017 at 5:07 pm #16195
LOL. Good one!December 27, 2017 at 7:11 am #16197
Problems with “hordes” are at least partly going to depend on where one lives. If there is a significant gang problem in your area, then the horde is already there.January 6, 2018 at 3:32 pm #16251
Minarchist – agree on the gang perspective. If there is significant gang activity near you, the relative horde may already be there. A somewhat comfort point if one does not live directly in an infected area, you have some time. Meaning, you may have opportunity to prepare for their arrival. I don’t mean SHTF prepare, I mean the Intel, control points, obstacles, etc. Gangs tend to be located where there are numbers to recruit or exploit, i.e., urban and suburban areas. If one is there, you are already in the horde’s cross-hairs.
The further into the outskirts or all out rural one is, the more time afforded since they will focus on their “territory”, i.e, immediate area. I could be wrong but experience with living in LA, these “people” tend to sh1t where they eat. Sorry for the crude metaphor but it is apropos. Thoughts?
Ok, so what to use for defense? Check this out (link–>) AA-12 Fully Automatic ShotgunJanuary 9, 2018 at 5:54 pm #16258
TN, What an amazing weapon! Very impressive and I certainly would feel a lot like RAMBO with one of those in my hand! The scary part? The “bad guys” probably have those type of weapons and more. I am unfortunately still smack dab in the middle of town so this topic hits close to home.February 7, 2018 at 7:59 pm #16426
Hank4 – Or maybe Arabic. Consider the jihadist sleeper cells and “moderate terrorists” already here. (half of them are terrorists and the other half are terrorist sympathizers). Already trained, already the nastiest of the nasty, no qualms in killing or in dying for their cause, and already used to SHTF environment having been raised with no power, plumbing, water, food, etc. Not enough to take over entire country immediately, but their “join us or die” tactics seem to get a lot of sheep to join them. MS13 types another threat with similar considerations. These groups would need to be targeted proactively.February 8, 2018 at 12:22 am #16427
OC- I hear you.
- Look for aggression
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